Has to be said

[lepage71]

Roush, you've gone way off of what I said. I wasn't insulting you. I was referring to the incomplete facts that you based your opinion upon concerning the "raw deal." This term would suggest that we've done something to them, something that contrasts all the good things you remember, and this is your opinion, not the "incomplete information." I'm not aware that we've done something unfair to them and will continue to point this out.

I'm sure you've had positive experiences with Rookiesrock and Reef, as have I.

[groverhardt]

I'm with DaveO. I did not want to post, but I feel a balance must be represented by long time old drivers. Once again I had a beautiful long response, but lost it before posting. :lol: In short:

Rook (and Reef for that matter) are two of the most highly respected racers/long time acquaintences that I know in Heat cirlces. I could commend several others still around and flirting with coming back as being in the same ball park, but sorry you are not mentioned (you know who you are). We know where we came from, and those people have helped make this league the excellent one that it is. This includes admins Lepage and Skoty. You may say that I don't have all the information as well, but in reading through the posts (and I may have missed it), I never heard anything about Rook admitting that he wrecked Patch intentionally. Yes we all know it happens, and usually only in practice for good fun or making a point, especially back in the good ole IRF days. And yes it is often a matter of perception, but unspoken intent is only in the mind of the person involved. This does not show probable cause to believe that the accused did have the intent. In light of that, based on preponderence of the evidence that often needs to be applied in assessing penalties in our theatre here, history and known character must be considered.

Patch- Known to all to take unnecessary risk, especially in practice. In his defense, though I rode on pins and needles during much of the Daytona race, all said and done he did an outstanding job in my fist hand opinion in that particular race. My overall opinion based on first hand experience is that he is not fully developed for this league, and some times makes risky and irriational newby decisions on the track at times. But I encourage him due to his display of potential.

Rook- Looong time acquaintence, member, Heat driver, very seasoned, professional on the track, and very respectful where it is warranted off the track. I have NEVER had any issue driving anywhere near Rook that was not an accidental result of good seat of your pants racing, and usually it was probably my mistake. But, Rook would usually say, out of respect for another seasoned driver, that it was probably his mistake, or blow it off with no hard feelings otherwise. Model representative of this league.

In short, I would err on the side of Rook in the particular incident mentioned.

Lepage is admin. Administrations are known to make mistakes/decisions, which are not always one in the same. It is not easy running an administration. I've tried. Sometimes failing, and sometimes passing it on to someone more capable or willing. Many have come and gone, tried and failed. I commend Lepage (and others) for establishing and maintaining this league this long at the level they have. I hope to see it's continuation for years to come. Drivers have come and gone (good ones), and some have returned after a time. I really hope to see Rook, Reef, and others like them continue to be around. Drivers of their caliber are just as essential to what this league is as is the administrative maintanence of the league itself. That is one reason myself and I know some others are here. Lepage is also one of those long time drivers that we've all enjoyed as an acquaintence/friend, and one that we've often enjoyed picking on in fun, and sometimes arguing with. I would trust especially as a founding administrator that Lepage would maintain his intregrity as a racer and administrator, because if he failed to do so, it would most probably be the demise of this unique long running league. And I would hope that if Lepage strayed from his professionalism, that he would correct his mistake(s).

Let's go racing boys.

[DusterLag]

You know what I think?

I think we should all shake hands & go racing tonight! All of us!

[d3efan]

It doesn't matter what we think, say, do, or feel. "The rules is the rules," as they say. IMO, I don't think Rook would have intentionally wrecked out Patch (I don't know too many facts about this so I won't go too far). Did he say it or imply it afterward? I say, you give a league champion the benefit of the doubt. But it doesn't matter, and I'm gonna tie this in with the Lepage/Reef saga on the other thread (which made the Me vs. PParady spat look like trivial pursuit, ty lol). We always applaud the League: Lepage, Skoty, Reef and others, who put on a heck of a yearlong racingleague. Why? And why do we come back the next year? I say because there is no evidence of shoddiness. How would you like to do this week after week, and dole out the penaties with strick application of the rules? My hat's off to you. Doesn't mean I, too, haven't been upset by certain penalties applied to me , but when you feel they are wrong, by God, contest them. An angry barb in the forums against the league must be responded too. There is no other recourse. Why attack the integrity of a league that you hold in such high regard? When you no longer feel that way, well, then it is time for you to leave. I would too. Cool off, think it through, and come on back in.

[bover907]

It's amazing how a guy who only ran 5 races in 06, 1 race in 07, Didn't run any races in 08, and ran 4 in 09 can have such a profound impact on the league and one of it's upstanding members. I for one am dumbfounded.

Funny, You'd think that the guy who is a multi time champion and a guy who always helps the new guys (even when a lot of us don't have the patience to) feels the need to quit because someone who's averaged two races over the past 4 years pushes him over the edge. Forgive me if I'm wrong here, because I obviously don't have all the information needed to understand this.

Only time I ever remember seeing patch on the track was in the 2006 #10 talledega race (he was subbing for J2theC). I was leading and Patch suddenly came all the way up from the apron and wrecked me (Leader) and Davis (2nd) out of the race with about 10 laps to go, handing HBman23 his first league victory. Very sour moment in my NHRL experience.

Yeah, I guess when this guy keeps having this profound an impact and gets the benifit of the doubt over guys like reef and rookiesrock... I can see why they want to quit........

Welcome to the NHRL Patch.

[JRich60]

Alright, fianlly made it back, and hope to be on the track soon. I know alot of you don't race with me or have even heard of me, but I did want to say I am proud to be a member of PTC and always will be. I know there are sometimes that there haave been incidents with Patch, Plm, Legend...lol...actually probably with me to from time to time.

Thanks lepage for letting stick77 know that I have been approved, but also that I have ran in the CTS league with NHRL last season.

Ok, another 2 cents worth .

PTC_Rich

[bover907]

Come on in, run the WHOLE SEASON and don't wreck people out.... that's all we ask.... as opposed to 1 to 5 races per year and specializing in wreckin people.

I base my posts in this thread on my perception of what I've read, and what I see in the NHRL stats pages..... all I can go by.

[bover907]

and finally..........

After viewing the replay, I feel what the league needs in the future is a 'rough driving' penalty. That be more sever than the 10 point dangerous driving which you can end up with just by being stupid or sucking really bad, and less than the 'intentional crashing' penalty, which is 50 points. Bigger than the points difference though, is what I feel the penalty infers. "intentional" had the word intent in it, which would mean that the intent to cause the other driver to crash was there. I'm sure no one meant to make any one else crash on lap 3 of that race. now, rough driving, That's what I'd feel this incedent is... rough driving. I'd could be 25 points.

When you think of intentional wrecking, you think of someone chasing someone on the track, or something like that. Not a spur of the moment thing, where a driver overdrives a corner in haste to get away from another driver who's driving irratically.

[lepage71]

In case there's confusion about legitimate racing tactics, this is a BIG reminder to the league as a whole. These strategies are not acceptable, have never been acceptable, and will never be acceptable. Unlike (unintentional) dangerous/aggressive driving infractions, intentional crashing/contact penalties have much more to do with motive than consequences. The rules are clear and forewarning on these matters.

The administrators should be notified about conflicts between drivers. We do not accept explanations about payback or revenge scenarios occuring during sanctioned league events. Every player should evaluate whether intentional contact is worth the significant consequences. Penalties can involve point deductions, suspensions, and even permanent bans.

Any deliberate blocking and contact between cars is prohibited. Drivers can still "trade paint" while competing in close battles for position, but the contact should never become retaliatory. Drivers may protect a position, but may not cause damage to faster cars attempting to make reasonable passes. Undoubtedly, blocking can be a complicated situation in which fault is ambiguous. As a general rule, once cars are alongside one another (fenders overlapping relative to the track surface), the leading driver no longer has an opportunity to protect a position. Protecting a position and instigating a dangerous block are two different things.

A driver should not direct competitors into walls, off-road areas, or other vehicles. Players can expect severe consequences for deliberate actions intending to disrupt fair competition between league members.

We have no plans to change these policies.

[retroracer]

Drivers can still "trade paint" while competing in close battles for position,

I plan on seeing and participating in some of that Sunday night!!!!!!