BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
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Rookiesrock
- League Member
- Posts: 1380
- Joined: Wed Jun 28, 2006 4:14 pm
I don't see any outrage at the fact that Davis recieved a CTS penalty 1 race b4 the end of the season that basically took him out of the championship hunt. He was racing for position and was in heavy traffic racing for 2nd. I would say that deserved leniency. Heat of battle type stuff. I see from reading these posts, this has happened at least 100 times this year. Please send me all wrecks where the leader was taken out by a lapped car away from traffic. I will jump on any band wagon that shows just cause.
Rookiesrock wrote:I don't see any outrage at the fact that Davis recieved a CTS penalty 1 race b4 the end of the season that basically took him out of the championship hunt. He was racing for position and was in heavy traffic racing for 2nd. I would say that deserved leniency. Heat of battle type stuff. I see from reading these posts, this has happened at least 100 times this year. Please send me all wrecks where the leader was taken out by a lapped car away from traffic. I will jump on any band wagon that shows just cause.
1. I think its kinda obvious that my boooooo and complaint here is an extention of my freindship with Wildfire and my invested interest being we were once teammates and we both worked very hard together for alot of races this year in the BGN. Were there other penalties in this league this year that i dont agree with? hell yea, but i cant go to bat for all of them.
2. Is that what you think happend on lap 59 of the last BGN race? "a leader taken out by a lapped car"?. well, i would strongly dissagree with that. there was contact yes, but the 71 was not "taken out" until lap 66, with another situation where someone got into the back of him (im sure it was not intentional, but nevertheless) and officially took him out of where he woulda finished anyway regaurdless of what happend on lap 59. I cant prove it, but i bet lap 66 had more to do with the penalty than lap 59.
3. When the "lapped" car is also the points leader and running in the top 5, i think it blows the notion of the typical "lapper" situation out of the window. then again, maybe thats just the way i look at it.
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Rookiesrock
- League Member
- Posts: 1380
- Joined: Wed Jun 28, 2006 4:14 pm
I don't know what the standard is. In my opinion, yes it does matter where you are on the track. Everyone yes everyone on that track expects certain things from the leaders, whether its passing or getting passed. You expect something different from rookies also. I couldn't be an admin. That jobs too hard. I don't understand the way these words/comments are flying around. Such as; cheap, true champion, competition is not fair, kangeroo court. I think it's disrespectful to accuse anyone of those things. It's my belief that this is all growing pains from previous years of drivers complaining about getting wrecked. So the league attempts to form rules to penalize contact between cars that result in 1 or more cars getting substancial damage. I see it as similar to the lucky dog rule. They had to modify it as they went, like JR spinning to get a caution so he could benefit from the lucky dog. Its an ever changing process. We as drivers are suppose to email the admins if we feel we have been wronged in a race. Other than Bover, who has done that and disagreed with the decision and how many have filed a complaint thru the correct channels and seen the penalty applied? I have recieved at least 2 reckless driving penalties this year due to complaints. And I deserved them. Yes they were unintentional but I had control of the situation and made a mistake. Thats what happened in this case of the NBS race. There was no reason whatsoever for #11 to be so close to a car a lap up. None. (sorry Dave) It was a mistake and it was his choice to make it or not. Man I feel for Dave. He worked his ass off this year and raced like a champion. The leaders most of the time wait patiently when cutting thru traffic. Don't they deserve the same? And I have to disagree with what the outcome of this race would have been had this incident not happened. Pitstops were over and it was clear lepage was going to win and #11 was slowing to at least 5th. The points would have been of greater distance between 1st and 2nd.
It's not my intention to get anybody riled up. It's my true belief that this league has been equally fair to all drivers. I really believe that. I don't know exactly why I feel like I need to fight back when I think the NHRL is getting attacked. But I do voice my opinion to lepage and skoty whenever I disagree with them. Which is often and usually not by forum. I diagreed with a few calls this year and let me tell you they know which ones. If proof comes out that all these other instances(50-100) were made known to the officials and nothing was done then my opinion will change drastically.
I'm not racing full time next year do to new rules my wife made. lol. But this is clearly a problem that needs addressing. Maybe there can be a thinktank comprised of team leaders to present some standards that everyone can live with and still enjoy heat.
I know I didnt cover eveything I intended to. Nor did I conclude every subject I brought up. If you have questions please email them since I'm done with this thread. It's time to produce something that works.
It's not my intention to get anybody riled up. It's my true belief that this league has been equally fair to all drivers. I really believe that. I don't know exactly why I feel like I need to fight back when I think the NHRL is getting attacked. But I do voice my opinion to lepage and skoty whenever I disagree with them. Which is often and usually not by forum. I diagreed with a few calls this year and let me tell you they know which ones. If proof comes out that all these other instances(50-100) were made known to the officials and nothing was done then my opinion will change drastically.
I'm not racing full time next year do to new rules my wife made. lol. But this is clearly a problem that needs addressing. Maybe there can be a thinktank comprised of team leaders to present some standards that everyone can live with and still enjoy heat.
I know I didnt cover eveything I intended to. Nor did I conclude every subject I brought up. If you have questions please email them since I'm done with this thread. It's time to produce something that works.
rookie, stand up and reach your hand down your pants and pull your panties out of the wad they are in! HA!
you say you dissagree with my point that the #71 would have still finished in the same place had it not been for someone "taking him out". ok, fine, pop in the tape and tell me what place the #71 was in after lap 59? then go look at what place he was in at lap 66? and thanks for making my point! clearly the #71 would have won that race regaurdless of what happend with him and the #11, therefore the penalty was not only wrong, IMO, but it was produced by a Kangaroo Court (definition - any crudely or irregularly operated court, esp. one so controlled as to render a fair trial impossible.) like i said before, its literally impossible for people to make rulings on competitions they themselfs compete in. it doesnt make them bad, or the devil, or scum, or anything disrespectfull, its just factual. If the friggin pope was in the league and made this ruling i would have the same opinion. I also dont have a solution or even think a solution is possible, thats why i made no demands in this tread or threats, i simply friggin booooooooooed.
plain and simple, if not for lap 66 then the #71 would have won the championship hands down and the accident would have produced not much more of a brush with the wall then lap 36 did when the #71 was all by himself. It would have been payed zero attention to and swept under the rug and gone forever.
but i guess its ok for someone to be racing hard and screw up if your racing for a win, but its not ok if you screw up and hit someone if your racing for a championship? that makes no sense to me at all, but then again reasonable people can dissagree i guess.
and i also do make all my complaints to the league about my driving or someone elses driving. i've dissagreed many times and agreed many times. i've joined, started, and perhaps instigated some of the things with other drivers, but thats different in my book than complaints. thats just drivers "working it out". We are all still men right?
this one is a whole different thing and nothing to do with either situation.
the opinions and feelings of drivers on particular matters in the nhrl are gonna come out no matter what, its only human nature in competition and there is no way to stop it, so the only question is where is it best to place the energy? here or on the track? talking to mirror mirror on the wall or to the pet or sending e-mails to the very people you dissagree with will never ever ever work. Placing my opinions here, no matter how obsurd they are perceived, is much better than the alternative.
I realize that some snot nosed heat racer kid from jersey could be looking for a league and not join ours if he sees dumb ass stuff like this, but thats why the only thing i would suggest would be a proper forum for venting or complaining where only league drivers could view. I would say that it would be a bit too sensitive for you rook, but who am i kidding? you know you love this shit!
and i am not anti-nhrl, i am pro-nhrl. if i didnt love it here, i would not give a rats ass enough to get involved with all this.
you say you dissagree with my point that the #71 would have still finished in the same place had it not been for someone "taking him out". ok, fine, pop in the tape and tell me what place the #71 was in after lap 59? then go look at what place he was in at lap 66? and thanks for making my point! clearly the #71 would have won that race regaurdless of what happend with him and the #11, therefore the penalty was not only wrong, IMO, but it was produced by a Kangaroo Court (definition - any crudely or irregularly operated court, esp. one so controlled as to render a fair trial impossible.) like i said before, its literally impossible for people to make rulings on competitions they themselfs compete in. it doesnt make them bad, or the devil, or scum, or anything disrespectfull, its just factual. If the friggin pope was in the league and made this ruling i would have the same opinion. I also dont have a solution or even think a solution is possible, thats why i made no demands in this tread or threats, i simply friggin booooooooooed.
plain and simple, if not for lap 66 then the #71 would have won the championship hands down and the accident would have produced not much more of a brush with the wall then lap 36 did when the #71 was all by himself. It would have been payed zero attention to and swept under the rug and gone forever.
but i guess its ok for someone to be racing hard and screw up if your racing for a win, but its not ok if you screw up and hit someone if your racing for a championship? that makes no sense to me at all, but then again reasonable people can dissagree i guess.
and i also do make all my complaints to the league about my driving or someone elses driving. i've dissagreed many times and agreed many times. i've joined, started, and perhaps instigated some of the things with other drivers, but thats different in my book than complaints. thats just drivers "working it out". We are all still men right?
this one is a whole different thing and nothing to do with either situation.
the opinions and feelings of drivers on particular matters in the nhrl are gonna come out no matter what, its only human nature in competition and there is no way to stop it, so the only question is where is it best to place the energy? here or on the track? talking to mirror mirror on the wall or to the pet or sending e-mails to the very people you dissagree with will never ever ever work. Placing my opinions here, no matter how obsurd they are perceived, is much better than the alternative.
I realize that some snot nosed heat racer kid from jersey could be looking for a league and not join ours if he sees dumb ass stuff like this, but thats why the only thing i would suggest would be a proper forum for venting or complaining where only league drivers could view. I would say that it would be a bit too sensitive for you rook, but who am i kidding? you know you love this shit!
and i am not anti-nhrl, i am pro-nhrl. if i didnt love it here, i would not give a rats ass enough to get involved with all this.
Last edited by efgordon on Tue Dec 19, 2006 8:30 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Skoty Speed
- League Administrator
- Posts: 510
- Joined: Wed Jun 28, 2006 2:54 pm
Sorry it took so long to respond, been kinda busy.
I'm going to try to explain a few things and answer the questions I can answer. Make yourself comfortable. This may be a long read...
Before I get started I would like to say that my earlier post in no way meant to imply that the NHRL is "some perfect place".....it's not and never will be. It wasn't my intention to insult or offend anyone. If it did, for that I apologize.
Believe it or not, there is a method to the madness of how we asses penalties. Obviously every incident has it's own set of circumstances, but there are basic guidelines we use in an attempt to be fair and consistant. I will try my best to explain these basic guidelines.
First off I'll explain how we review a race. Each race is to be reviewed by at least 2 admins ( truth is with Fred and Tommy quitting that didn't always happen this past year). We review a race by watching every driver from start to finish. So if there are 20 cars in a race we watch the replay 20 times. You get the idea.
Some of you asked why the incident on lap 59 of the Busch race was a penalty. This one is quite simple, really. When you rearend someone going into a turn, intentionaly or not, and that contact causes a wreck or severe damage to the car you had contact with, your going to get a penalty. Your probably wondering why if it wasn't intentional would it be a penalty. The answer is because it's way to easy to intentionaly wreck someone by rearending them going into a turn and say it was an accident. There is really no way of telling the difference by reviewing a replay. Therefore if you do it, you can expect a penalty. It doesn't matter who does it, or if you are a lap down, or if the result of the penalty affects the points standings or not. Your going to get a penalty. This penalty was consistant with several penalties of it's kind throughout the season.
Now, why wasn't the incident on lap 66 a penalty? Well, you can easily see on the replay that the 71 car got hard on the brakes coming out of turn 4 to avoid wrecking another car that was a liitle off the pace, but not doing anything illegal. Leaving the 1 car no time to react or anywhere to go but into the back of the 71. So basicly by misjudging the car in front of him, and slamming on the brakes, the 71 caused himself to be wrecked and the 1 car just got caught up in it.
A few of you guys have asked me why MinnerWinner wasn't penalized at I think it was Talladega. The incident happened coming out of turn 4. MinnerWinner caught the apron and spun which collected the 1 and 47 car. We have never penalized anyone for hitting the apron and losing control. Nor have we ever penalized anyone for spinng out or hitting the wall causing you to lose control and collecting other car/s as a result. These kinds of incidences are considered single car incidences, and are simply ruled as a racing incident and no one gets penalized.
Now, obviously when you race hard theres going to be some contact between cars. If you have contact with another car, whether you or the other car initiated it, if no one gets wrecked or suffers severe damage it's ruled as incidental contact and no penalty is assessed. If you initiate the contact and the car you have contact with wrecks or suffers severe damage because of it, you will get a penalty. If you intiate the contact and you wreck and the car you had contact with doesn't, no penalty is assessed. Now in some cases both cars can be ruled at fault..An example of that would be.....say you are going down the backstretch at Daytona. You are in the high lane and there is another car next to you in the low lane. If your car drifts down and at the same time the other car drifts up and you make contact you are both considered at fault and if you and/or the other car wrecks no penalty is assessed. (Obviously at Daytona you would both wreck..lol).
One other incident that was brought up was Bover getting wrecked by a car illegally exiting the pits. I already explained this to Bover privately but I will repeat it here for those of you that are wondering about it. In this case quite frankly we made a mistake. We checked our notes on that race and a penalty was suppose to be assessed. But for some reason that I can't explain it didnt get put on the results page, nor were the points ever deducted. I apologize to Bover for that mistake.
One more thing I would like to bring up is that as it states on the rules page all penalties are reviewable. If you feel you were wrongly penalized you may ask for a secondary review of said penalty. Also on that note, if you feel someone should have been penalized that wasn't, please feel free to bring it up to one of the admins.
I'm sure I didn't cover everything here and quite frankly I can't. Like I said before. Every incident has different circumstances to it and it's impossible to predict what will happen in the future. But I can confidently speak for all the admins in saying that we do try to be fair and consistant with assessing any penalty. If you have any suggestions or idea on how we can make this better, please feel free to contact me. I'm on AIM and Yahoo a good portion of the day.
Skoty
I'm going to try to explain a few things and answer the questions I can answer. Make yourself comfortable. This may be a long read...
Before I get started I would like to say that my earlier post in no way meant to imply that the NHRL is "some perfect place".....it's not and never will be. It wasn't my intention to insult or offend anyone. If it did, for that I apologize.
Believe it or not, there is a method to the madness of how we asses penalties. Obviously every incident has it's own set of circumstances, but there are basic guidelines we use in an attempt to be fair and consistant. I will try my best to explain these basic guidelines.
First off I'll explain how we review a race. Each race is to be reviewed by at least 2 admins ( truth is with Fred and Tommy quitting that didn't always happen this past year). We review a race by watching every driver from start to finish. So if there are 20 cars in a race we watch the replay 20 times. You get the idea.
Some of you asked why the incident on lap 59 of the Busch race was a penalty. This one is quite simple, really. When you rearend someone going into a turn, intentionaly or not, and that contact causes a wreck or severe damage to the car you had contact with, your going to get a penalty. Your probably wondering why if it wasn't intentional would it be a penalty. The answer is because it's way to easy to intentionaly wreck someone by rearending them going into a turn and say it was an accident. There is really no way of telling the difference by reviewing a replay. Therefore if you do it, you can expect a penalty. It doesn't matter who does it, or if you are a lap down, or if the result of the penalty affects the points standings or not. Your going to get a penalty. This penalty was consistant with several penalties of it's kind throughout the season.
Now, why wasn't the incident on lap 66 a penalty? Well, you can easily see on the replay that the 71 car got hard on the brakes coming out of turn 4 to avoid wrecking another car that was a liitle off the pace, but not doing anything illegal. Leaving the 1 car no time to react or anywhere to go but into the back of the 71. So basicly by misjudging the car in front of him, and slamming on the brakes, the 71 caused himself to be wrecked and the 1 car just got caught up in it.
A few of you guys have asked me why MinnerWinner wasn't penalized at I think it was Talladega. The incident happened coming out of turn 4. MinnerWinner caught the apron and spun which collected the 1 and 47 car. We have never penalized anyone for hitting the apron and losing control. Nor have we ever penalized anyone for spinng out or hitting the wall causing you to lose control and collecting other car/s as a result. These kinds of incidences are considered single car incidences, and are simply ruled as a racing incident and no one gets penalized.
Now, obviously when you race hard theres going to be some contact between cars. If you have contact with another car, whether you or the other car initiated it, if no one gets wrecked or suffers severe damage it's ruled as incidental contact and no penalty is assessed. If you initiate the contact and the car you have contact with wrecks or suffers severe damage because of it, you will get a penalty. If you intiate the contact and you wreck and the car you had contact with doesn't, no penalty is assessed. Now in some cases both cars can be ruled at fault..An example of that would be.....say you are going down the backstretch at Daytona. You are in the high lane and there is another car next to you in the low lane. If your car drifts down and at the same time the other car drifts up and you make contact you are both considered at fault and if you and/or the other car wrecks no penalty is assessed. (Obviously at Daytona you would both wreck..lol).
One other incident that was brought up was Bover getting wrecked by a car illegally exiting the pits. I already explained this to Bover privately but I will repeat it here for those of you that are wondering about it. In this case quite frankly we made a mistake. We checked our notes on that race and a penalty was suppose to be assessed. But for some reason that I can't explain it didnt get put on the results page, nor were the points ever deducted. I apologize to Bover for that mistake.
One more thing I would like to bring up is that as it states on the rules page all penalties are reviewable. If you feel you were wrongly penalized you may ask for a secondary review of said penalty. Also on that note, if you feel someone should have been penalized that wasn't, please feel free to bring it up to one of the admins.
I'm sure I didn't cover everything here and quite frankly I can't. Like I said before. Every incident has different circumstances to it and it's impossible to predict what will happen in the future. But I can confidently speak for all the admins in saying that we do try to be fair and consistant with assessing any penalty. If you have any suggestions or idea on how we can make this better, please feel free to contact me. I'm on AIM and Yahoo a good portion of the day.
Skoty
so in the case of the last bgn race, the #11 was given the penalty because the result of his mistake (running into the back of the #71) gave the #71 "severe damage"? How does one judge damage though? or is any contact to the wall considered "severe". what if that car was already damaged? how the heck can one see damage in a replay anyway?
also, other contact that is not "rear end contact" is seen differently and judged on a case by case basis?
i would think the vast majority of the contact in this league is side to side or right front fender to left rear quarter, ect ect, and not just a hit from directly behind.
and this does not apply in reverse? meaning someone making a mistake and having to slam on the breaks and causing "severe damage" to the front bumper of car behind them, does not get a penalty?
most of what you say here skoty seems very well thought out and all, but its still just something in the back of my mind that i will just never know the truth to.......
and its simply my opinion from being around for quite a while now and paying close attention to everything, that had it not been for lap 66, then there would have been no penalty for lap 59.
for reasons that i have already stated, it just "seems" wrong and unjust.
also, other contact that is not "rear end contact" is seen differently and judged on a case by case basis?
i would think the vast majority of the contact in this league is side to side or right front fender to left rear quarter, ect ect, and not just a hit from directly behind.
and this does not apply in reverse? meaning someone making a mistake and having to slam on the breaks and causing "severe damage" to the front bumper of car behind them, does not get a penalty?
most of what you say here skoty seems very well thought out and all, but its still just something in the back of my mind that i will just never know the truth to.......
and its simply my opinion from being around for quite a while now and paying close attention to everything, that had it not been for lap 66, then there would have been no penalty for lap 59.
for reasons that i have already stated, it just "seems" wrong and unjust.
So there is a penalty for getting on the brakes too easy and incidentially rear-ending someone, but there is not a penalty for hard breaking and causing incidental contact?
Confused what the difference is, as they are both incidental.
Did we ever look at the 71 car and see if maybe he accidentally braked slightly harder going into that turn because he had a good run on the 11 on the str8-away?
For example, every lap before then he's slowing to 110, then on that lap he incidentally slowed to 108, which if he was still going 110 maybe there isn't a chance to have slight contact. If so, would 71 get a penalty for slowing too much causing a rear-ending?
Confused what the difference is, as they are both incidental.
Did we ever look at the 71 car and see if maybe he accidentally braked slightly harder going into that turn because he had a good run on the 11 on the str8-away?
For example, every lap before then he's slowing to 110, then on that lap he incidentally slowed to 108, which if he was still going 110 maybe there isn't a chance to have slight contact. If so, would 71 get a penalty for slowing too much causing a rear-ending?
Free Agent
i doubt if the #11 could tell the difference between 110 and 108 or even 98 from inside the car. If the officials had to break things down that far we would really be in trouble...lol and i would agree them 100% if there take is exacly as skoty explained, knowing it was a "mistake" by the #11 that caused contact and the contact resulted in damage. I never really knew the exact way they looked at it, but the explanation seems pretty well thought out if you ask me. side to side contact, mishaps in the pits, and all things concerning comming up and down on eachother are appearently viewed differently than these types of contacts, which i guess is fine and dandy.camry wrote:So there is a penalty for getting on the brakes too easy and incidentially rear-ending someone, but there is not a penalty for hard breaking and causing incidental contact?
Confused what the difference is, as they are both incidental.
Did we ever look at the 71 car and see if maybe he accidentally braked slightly harder going into that turn because he had a good run on the 11 on the str8-away?
For example, every lap before then he's slowing to 110, then on that lap he incidentally slowed to 108, which if he was still going 110 maybe there isn't a chance to have slight contact. If so, would 71 get a penalty for slowing too much causing a rear-ending?
however, it still has a stench that doesnt sit right with me when a league official comes and has an explanation about lap #66 that demonstrates exacly what my thinking was from the get go. He comes right out and says that on lap 66, the #11 did not do anything wrong, and the #71 made a "mistake" that caused contact that produced "severe" damage. and before someone asks....."how do you know it was severe?" I'll have them know that it was me that won the race after the #1 was obviously off the pace with "severe" damage after that "mistake" by the #71.
so what i have said from the beggining of this whole mess is factual. the errors on lap 66 had much much more say in how the race and season ended than lap 59. lap 66 saw a mistake "take out" any shot of a win for the #71 and #1 and the exact words from the admins about lap 66 was that the #11 did nothing wrong. how the hell everyone who disagrees with me lets me beat them with their own words is yet another mistery that i will never figure out.
and i personally think the league takes a Mills Lane point of view on these things. For those who dont know, mills lane was a boxing ref/attorney who was the ref the night tyson bit holyfeilds ear, then parlayed that fame into one of those daytime court shows like judge judy and the peoples court. The famous line he used to always say when trying to make a judgement was....
"its not final because i am right, its right because i am final"
so the league gets the final say and their final say makes it right i guess.
it still stinks, and i still say "booooooooooo"
but i can live with it and will live with it as long as i am not forced to be silent on the matter in fear of upsetting the feminist of the league.