on the penalty listed in the BGN final race
robbery
and dont bother trying to explain it away, its totally obvious "why" this was done.
i saved every race i was in this year and if i had the time and energy then i would post ATLEAST 50 or so instances where basically the same thing happen but no penalty was given. i can probably show 50 incidents that were worse and 100-200 that were pretty identicle.
if there was a penalty in that race, then we should stop calling them "races" and just call them gymnastics or synchronized driving events.
booooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
Have to agree with you EF. Kinda cheap to lose a championship because of a penalty and also ironic that it benefits the league manager.
As EF said, incidental contact happens all season long, and not every incident gets a penalty?
Why now? Because it was amongst the leaders? Was it because we needed to find a way to not have a "un-known" driver.
I was holding back my comments on this and I have still not seen a penalty in the rule book that says incidental conact is a penalty.
I feel this is one of the reasons why alot of drivers are leaving or are only part-timing it, the league seems to regressing and not progressing.
Inconsistencies are more and more.
Will
As EF said, incidental contact happens all season long, and not every incident gets a penalty?
Why now? Because it was amongst the leaders? Was it because we needed to find a way to not have a "un-known" driver.
I was holding back my comments on this and I have still not seen a penalty in the rule book that says incidental conact is a penalty.
I feel this is one of the reasons why alot of drivers are leaving or are only part-timing it, the league seems to regressing and not progressing.
Inconsistencies are more and more.
Will
Free Agent
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Skoty Speed
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and dont bother trying to explain it away, its totally obvious "why" this was done.
Everyone has a right to there opinion, but I must say I am offended by whats being insinuated here. In lepage's defense, it has always been an NHRL policy that if an admin is involed in an incident, he has no say in the ruling or resulting penalty. So lepage had ABSALUTELY NOTHING to do with this ruling. This was my call. I also had a few others look at it and we all agreed it was the right call. And I stand by that call as being the right call. Yea it sucks that a penalty made the difference, but if I wanna be unbias in my decisions, I can't take that into account when reviewing that or any other incident . All I can say is that I do everything I can to make sure this league is run fairly and honestly. And I believe it is or I wouldn't be a part of it.Have to agree with you EF. Kinda cheap to lose a championship because of a penalty and also ironic that it benefits the league manager.
In the last few months I've seen posts with words like "unfair" "inconsistant" and " conspiracy" and aside from Jared who brought up the DNR rule, no one has taken the time to back up there accusations. I'm not saying we don't make mistakes or miss things from time to time....I'm sure we do...we're only human. If a mistake was made I surely want to know about it. But making empty accusations isn't going to accomplish anything.
Skoty
What Skoty said is true.. Lepage was not involded at all in the decision making about my penalty... That I do know cuz I spoke about my penalty in private in great lengths to skoty, I just never spoke about it on the forums to how it was handled.. Cuz doing it privately and profesionally was IMO the right way for it to be handled. Yes it does SUCK that it came down to a penalty lol.... but I'm totally cool about there decision.Skoty Speed wrote:and dont bother trying to explain it away, its totally obvious "why" this was done.Everyone has a right to there opinion, but I must say I am offended by whats being insinuated here. In lepage's defense, it has always been an NHRL policy that if an admin is involed in an incident, he has no say in the ruling or resulting penalty. So lepage had ABSALUTELY NOTHING to do with this ruling. This was my call. I also had a few others look at it and we all agreed it was the right call. And I stand by that call as being the right call. Yea it sucks that a penalty made the difference, but if I wanna be unbias in my decisions, I can't take that into account when reviewing that or any other incident . All I can say is that I do everything I can to make sure this league is run fairly and honestly. And I believe it is or I wouldn't be a part of it.Have to agree with you EF. Kinda cheap to lose a championship because of a penalty and also ironic that it benefits the league manager.
In the last few months I've seen posts with words like "unfair" "inconsistant" and " conspiracy" and aside from Jared who brought up the DNR rule, no one has taken the time to back up there accusations. I'm not saying we don't make mistakes or miss things from time to time....I'm sure we do...we're only human. If a mistake was made I surely want to know about it. But making empty accusations isn't going to accomplish anything.
Skoty
Now.... Case Closed on this particular subject... If you guys wanna talk about other races that's fine with me. But I would rather let this one particular subject that has to do with me end now..
I guess I should of mentioned this earlier in the season, this is nothing new, I've been debating this for a long time coming, and only a few peeps actually new about this, but I'm offically retiring from heat racing.
So when you guys need a sub next season send me an email. Would enjoy being a sub occasionally!!
email addy: WildFire083@yahoo.comNow back to real life and the holidays!!!
Merry Christmas everyone...
Thank you, Dave
well as much as i would like to respect your wishes Dave, this is not really just about you!
and to be honest, i'm offended by the notion that the NHRL is some perfect world without grudges and bias that just naturally occur in any competition where the people who compete also make the rulings. Its not possible and its an insult to my intellegence to make believe its even possible. I'm not saying you guys are bad people or demons, I'm just stating my opinion that your wrong and there can be no true champion when the competition is not fair. Drivers had the same thing happen to them all season long and there were rarely penalties for an something like that. heck, why no penalty for lap 66?
the word behind the scenes and knowledge of the soon to be penalty came out against dave almost immediately after the race and the so called steps that were taken of passing the tape around to get more opinions is nothing but a smoke screen and a kangaroo court, we all knew that because of who was involved that it would be looked at differently.
now, unlike so many other guys around here, i dont plan on retiring. I plan on comming back for atleast another year to compete in the NHRL if you guys will have me. I might have strange views and no fear of posting them, but i have never once in my life made a political statement with my car and i show up prepared and willing to live with the not so perfect world of online racing. I've had my share of incidents with many other drivers, but i always make sure i squash it before the next event. If the NHRL wants to hold this against me, so be it, but dont think for a minute that i dont already know that i have to race certain guys different than others because i know that there are 2 kinds of wrecks in the NHRL. wrecks that dont involve admins and wrecks that do, and the ones that do produce more penalties than ones that dont. Thats just a fact. If one of you admins want to switch names with me for one race and just see for one friggin time what the double standard is, then take me up on it and be prepared to get pushed around and possibly wrecked by other drivers on a weekly basis with no penalties.
and to be honest, i'm offended by the notion that the NHRL is some perfect world without grudges and bias that just naturally occur in any competition where the people who compete also make the rulings. Its not possible and its an insult to my intellegence to make believe its even possible. I'm not saying you guys are bad people or demons, I'm just stating my opinion that your wrong and there can be no true champion when the competition is not fair. Drivers had the same thing happen to them all season long and there were rarely penalties for an something like that. heck, why no penalty for lap 66?
the word behind the scenes and knowledge of the soon to be penalty came out against dave almost immediately after the race and the so called steps that were taken of passing the tape around to get more opinions is nothing but a smoke screen and a kangaroo court, we all knew that because of who was involved that it would be looked at differently.
now, unlike so many other guys around here, i dont plan on retiring. I plan on comming back for atleast another year to compete in the NHRL if you guys will have me. I might have strange views and no fear of posting them, but i have never once in my life made a political statement with my car and i show up prepared and willing to live with the not so perfect world of online racing. I've had my share of incidents with many other drivers, but i always make sure i squash it before the next event. If the NHRL wants to hold this against me, so be it, but dont think for a minute that i dont already know that i have to race certain guys different than others because i know that there are 2 kinds of wrecks in the NHRL. wrecks that dont involve admins and wrecks that do, and the ones that do produce more penalties than ones that dont. Thats just a fact. If one of you admins want to switch names with me for one race and just see for one friggin time what the double standard is, then take me up on it and be prepared to get pushed around and possibly wrecked by other drivers on a weekly basis with no penalties.
I also agree with EF and his views. You could probably find 100 incidents like this all season and not a penalty to be found. That DOES NOT mean it should be a penalty or not, it just needs to be consistent. But the more rules you add, the more and more questions and grey area get added for drivers.
If this incident happened between 2 drivers who were running 11th and 12th in points, would there have been a penalty?
Or what if it was Dave and any driver not named Lepage, Skot, Tommy, Rookie battling for the championship, would it have been a penalty?
The thing that got me was that the very next morning before any results were in or penalties given, Dave IM'd me and said right away he won and lost the championship. Asking why he lost, he stated that he incidentally had contact with LP and he just knew there would be a penalty to follow eventhough it was completely incidental.
And how/why was this incident reviewed, did LP file a complaint? Was it caught on tape with no complaint filed? Was it because it was the points leaders?
Is this how we want all non-Admin drivers to feel every race? Scared to be near an admin, either in front or behind?
And also with EF, I have 0 issue voicing my opinion. But I nor he should be penalized because we are vocal. Shit, I think more voices should be heard, but alot are scared to post because they don't want to be blackballed.
Let me also state that I think NHRL is and can continue to be a great league, but it seems we are becoming more political then "hobby-like" and for most people, they can find a more constructive way to spend there free time then to deal with a dictatorship-like style. Which is a reason IMO that alot of people are leaving or going part-time because they don't want to deal with it.
Will
If this incident happened between 2 drivers who were running 11th and 12th in points, would there have been a penalty?
Or what if it was Dave and any driver not named Lepage, Skot, Tommy, Rookie battling for the championship, would it have been a penalty?
The thing that got me was that the very next morning before any results were in or penalties given, Dave IM'd me and said right away he won and lost the championship. Asking why he lost, he stated that he incidentally had contact with LP and he just knew there would be a penalty to follow eventhough it was completely incidental.
And how/why was this incident reviewed, did LP file a complaint? Was it caught on tape with no complaint filed? Was it because it was the points leaders?
Is this how we want all non-Admin drivers to feel every race? Scared to be near an admin, either in front or behind?
And also with EF, I have 0 issue voicing my opinion. But I nor he should be penalized because we are vocal. Shit, I think more voices should be heard, but alot are scared to post because they don't want to be blackballed.
Let me also state that I think NHRL is and can continue to be a great league, but it seems we are becoming more political then "hobby-like" and for most people, they can find a more constructive way to spend there free time then to deal with a dictatorship-like style. Which is a reason IMO that alot of people are leaving or going part-time because they don't want to deal with it.
Will
Free Agent
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bover907
- League Administrator
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I usually don't start ish or agree with the 'against the grain crowd' (that was a joke, don't get your panties in a wad, HB. LOL) but I can remember when I was inside ten laps away from my first win, and a driver came out of the pits, right up to the top of the track, and I had what was going to be a sure fire win taken away from me. Heck I still ain't come that close to winning, but I digress.
Point is, I complained, asked for a dangerous driving penalty, and none was given. His was more of an infraction IMO than.... what did wildfire do, catch apron? we've all done that.
Doesn't the rulebook say accidents happen. Dangerous driving is totally different than racing hard, and 'racing deals'. I view dangerous driving penalty as something like trying hard to pass on the first lap, causing a wreck, or exiting the backstretch right up to the top groove, or trying to pass in the bus stop at the glenn ala robby gordon.
who wouln't in Wildfires shoes, (gotta beat lepage to win the championship) either win or wreck tryin. beit a sim racer, or one of the real ones on TV? I know if I were in those shoes, or even trying for my first win, I would either 'win, or wreck tryin'.
On a side note.... go to My Paintshop and check out the new look, and stick's new ride. (Sorry, had to he he)
Point is, I complained, asked for a dangerous driving penalty, and none was given. His was more of an infraction IMO than.... what did wildfire do, catch apron? we've all done that.
Doesn't the rulebook say accidents happen. Dangerous driving is totally different than racing hard, and 'racing deals'. I view dangerous driving penalty as something like trying hard to pass on the first lap, causing a wreck, or exiting the backstretch right up to the top groove, or trying to pass in the bus stop at the glenn ala robby gordon.
who wouln't in Wildfires shoes, (gotta beat lepage to win the championship) either win or wreck tryin. beit a sim racer, or one of the real ones on TV? I know if I were in those shoes, or even trying for my first win, I would either 'win, or wreck tryin'.
On a side note.... go to My Paintshop and check out the new look, and stick's new ride. (Sorry, had to he he)
Bover907
Old School Racing
Old School Racing
I really have no place in this discussion, but I just wanted to throw out from what I learned through my experience that it's difficult, probably impossible, to make a consistent ruling for reckless driving. It will always differ for every driver and every situation, regardless of who's involved or who's running for the championship.
Steve aka Etab
I agree with that 100%Etab wrote:I really have no place in this discussion, but I just wanted to throw out from what I learned through my experience that it's difficult, probably impossible, to make a consistent ruling for reckless driving. It will always differ for every driver and every situation, regardless of who's involved or who's running for the championship.
thats why the admins need to understand that when they are part of something like that it might look bad to them, but the rest of us think or in my case SAY "thats what we deal with on a weekly basis, why is this one such a big deal?"
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bover907
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Now, on that note, I have also seen lepage and skoty get taken out a lot of times this season, and there were no penalties given at all. Just to be fair.
but ef's last post kinda sums it all up. Why was this situation so special? Now to be fair again, I haven't seen the replay, but I was the first car behind them, and as far as I can remember, I don't remember seeing any unscroupulous activities going on there.
but ef's last post kinda sums it all up. Why was this situation so special? Now to be fair again, I haven't seen the replay, but I was the first car behind them, and as far as I can remember, I don't remember seeing any unscroupulous activities going on there.
Bover907
Old School Racing
Old School Racing
I just think its all bs and this incident will sum up the entire season, regardless of the outcome. I think there is a problem, but to be completely honest, I do not have a solution other than be more consistant. Working in the SCCA, I have witnessed first hand how hard it is to call these races. One thing is for sure, no matter what you do, not everyone is gonna be happy. It also involves a lot of hard work to run these things. Everyone knows that I have a lot of respect for lepage, but some of the calls this year, frivolous or not, look bad on the NHRL in my HO. I know many guys are leaving because of the calls made. That goes with my previous post, the "If you don't like it, leave" attitude of SOME guys over here. Well they are and I dont think blame should be placed solely on the admins though. Heat dying, member attitudes, accident penalties are all to blame. I dont know what to do to fix it, but it needs to be fixed or I see some races having about 8 drivers in them in 2007.
perhaps a "complaint" forum, that is only viewable by drivers of that series, so we dont air our dirty laundry in public
and
and unwritten rule that says its a known fact in life that if your gonna have a legit competition and score points, then your gonna have complaints. every competition or league of every type from adults to 55 pound pee wee football players have people that complain. its part of life, nobody should get all bent out of shape because of a complaint.
if you were a fly on the wall in one of those top corporations board room meetings, you would find people yelling and screaming and complaining and then by the end of the meeting they shake hands and go back to work.
me booing and dissagreeing with a league ruling is not the end of the world. if someone is so shaken up by it now that they dont think they could try to "compete" anyway and not let it get to them, they should probably quit anyway.
there is no solution to make the competition a perfect competition. nobody else in the world has figured it out and some get paid millions to try.
it is what it is, and i know i can live with it as long as i can vent here instead of on the track.
and
and unwritten rule that says its a known fact in life that if your gonna have a legit competition and score points, then your gonna have complaints. every competition or league of every type from adults to 55 pound pee wee football players have people that complain. its part of life, nobody should get all bent out of shape because of a complaint.
if you were a fly on the wall in one of those top corporations board room meetings, you would find people yelling and screaming and complaining and then by the end of the meeting they shake hands and go back to work.
me booing and dissagreeing with a league ruling is not the end of the world. if someone is so shaken up by it now that they dont think they could try to "compete" anyway and not let it get to them, they should probably quit anyway.
there is no solution to make the competition a perfect competition. nobody else in the world has figured it out and some get paid millions to try.
it is what it is, and i know i can live with it as long as i can vent here instead of on the track.
Ok bud!! I'm just tired of the subject... and wanna move on. -sighcamry wrote:Wild, this is above your issue. Your issue just was the final piece.
that's it in the nutshell. lol
Like I've said in past post, everything that was done, was handled in private, and totally on the up and up.. there was no BS or anything, I went as far as I could on how you could handle this kind of penalty, and I'm fine on the outcome of it!!!