Has to be said

General announcements, discussion, and rumors about the league.
User avatar
Rookiesrock
League Member
Posts: 1380
Joined: Wed Jun 28, 2006 4:14 pm

Has to be said

Post by Rookiesrock »

I should have done this weeks ago after the Daytona sprints when I received penalties for not following the "spirit" of the rule. Then I should have done it again after last weeks dangerous driving penalty which was ultimately reversed based on one drivers comment. And now after todays official results reveal the -50 point intentionally wrecking penalty. "Bordering on suspension" I'm told. Lepage says he gave me "a huge break". It is clear in Lepage's statement that last weeks reversed incident was considered in this weeks decree. I take full ownership of this newest penalty but take issue with the size and basis on which it was measured. The following is the pm I received after asking if I have any recourse,
Well, doing a secondary review in regards to this incident is a tough one.

Unlike your Daytona Sprint and North Carolina issues, which Skoty and I discussed again after you made it clear you didn't agree with the penalties (yes, without Reef, since he was nowhere to be found and also never bothered to look at the replays), it's much harder for us to look at this incident again and think differently.

I suppose it depends on what you're asking about: whether or not you did it or whether or not a lighter penalty should have been applied. I don't really know if the first point is particularly debatable. Both replays seem very clear to us. On the second point, we went as far as discussing suspensions, so I think we've already given you (and Patch, for a separate incident), a huge break in that regard. But we can discuss it again, just let us know specifically.
The North Carolina incident was about patch and myself going into and coming of turn 2 and we got together 3 times side to side after which Patch pitted and came off the apron into traffic. The following is from Lepage after I inquired about that penalty.
I didn't think you deserved a penalty when I initially saw your incident with Patch. From the cockpit view, it does look like he cuts down into you out of nowhere. The cockpit view alone, however, can be very misleading and it only presents one driver's perspective. If you look at the incident closely, from other angles, he doesn't really come down a ridiculous amount, at least nothing unusual for a driver in that portion of the track. From the chase and overhead views, you actually come up much more than he comes down. Since you were the faster, approaching car on fresher tires, had the advantage of seeing what was in front of you, and did not appear to lift at any point in the turn in order to preserve your speed, Skoty and I felt that you did not demonstrate much carefulness in this incident. Had you and Patch just bounced off of each other and nothing else happened, no penalty would have been in the mix. Unfortunately, your running hard into Patch resulted in some mayhem after he spun onto the apron and flew back onto the track, collecting a trio of victims. I don't know if you've actually seen the replay or not, but you probably didn't see any of that because it happens quite a bit after the incident, a chain reaction of sorts.

Reef being behind you during the race is certainly an interesting fact, but it's not an accurate or meaningful perspective for interpreting what happened after the fact. I'm sure the point that Patch was pitting and driving in an ambiguous lane adds fuel to your displeasure with him, as well as the fact that he foiled a bunch of other drivers' races with stupid pitting on laps 40 and 80, but if you look at the situation without these perceptions, the incident (in our opinion) has a lot more to do with you than it does with him.
The penalty was for the actions of a car I had contact with a backstretch earlier? Late last week Patch says he had control in between incidents. So the penalty gets dropped. Now this week Lepage and Skoty concluded that I have a riff with Patch and try to intentionally wreck him. I went low and Patch went in too deep and I tried to out run him off the corner. We got together with me being at fault. That has been happening week after week by numerous drivers for the last few seasons around here. I have yet to see the differences between most of them. I see no way to get beyond the question of fairness. I believe this has turned into something more between Lepage and Skoty and myself as drivers and has spilled into the admins house of cards. There is always the NHRL appointed town crier who for years has squalled of conspiracy and denied slanderous allegations. But I say this for facts. Lepage takes the NBS points lead this week. The next 3 contenders all have penalties in which Lepage has had a hand in dealing out or had his opinion considered. All of Lepages long winded explanations cannot change them facts. It's suspect at the least.
I disagree with Lepages misguided definitions of "perspective" "fairness" and "Spirit of the rule". My conflicts with Lepage stop there though. He has managed to gather the best drivers out there and keep them herded in some shape or fashion. I have no beef with the rules either (except that stupid Daytona one). I just don't believe I have a fair shake anymore. I don't want to trash him but sometimes he is just plain wrong and doesn't see the tree thru the forest. I have tried dearly to be reasonable. I have my own set of standards and principles that I try my damnedest to live by and they have reached a deal breaker.
I've had some really terrific times with all of you. Racing hard and tough. Good and bad. Happy and sad. I'll miss all of you.
bmxtwins
League Member
Posts: 1461
Joined: Tue Jun 17, 2008 10:00 pm

Re: Has to be said

Post by bmxtwins »

Farewell fellow racer hope to see you around. :cry:
User avatar
lepage71
League Administrator
Posts: 2355
Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2006 1:00 am
Location: NASCAR Heat Racing League
Contact:

Re: Has to be said

Post by lepage71 »

Best of luck and I hope to see you around the Heat community.

This is certainly too bad, but I can't say that I didn't see it coming. It's amazing how two drivers can get along on the track, in the server, and in conversations, but are ultimately separated due to one's perception of managerial abuse by the other. Frankly, it's way off-base, but I don't doubt the perceptions or feelings.

This week's "intentional crashing" penalty violated every principle in the league rules. It has not been a tactic used by other drivers in previous races this season. Naturally, its consequences are harsher than normal, but they hardly differ from similar penalties assessed in the past. In fact, we were probably too lenient, as is often the case, because these penalties frequently involved suspensions.

Overall, everyone who's dealt with Skoty and I regarding penalties knows that we've given their perspective the appropriate consideration. As I've often said, you can always disagree about our interpretation of a penalty, but there's simply no history or evidence to suggest that we're unfair in our enforcement of the league rules. We have to make judgements and sometimes there will be disagreements. In Rookie's case, I can honestly say that his assertions are wrong. Each of his penalties had nothing to do with the other. We don't go around and deliberately search for things to penalize. Instead, we try to be as consistent as possible and I believe that we do a pretty decent job.

Once in awhile, when someone's angry about penalties, I feel like they're actually more angry that they can't counter with something that I've done myself, compare it to what they've done, and then point out the hypocrisy. In these cases, the fact that I try to set an example and then in turn feel compelled to interpret someone else's behavior is what causes the anger more than anything else. I'm not suggesting that this explains what happened here, but from my perspective few other things provide a good reason for it.
SpeedyExiter
League Member
Posts: 991
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2007 5:58 am
Location: Phoenix, Arizona
Contact:

Re: Has to be said

Post by SpeedyExiter »

Rook, I do hope you change your mind and continue to race here with us.I can understand your frustrations with the League,especially within the last few
weeks, the incidents on the track, the opposing opinions that have been posted in this forum ,and why your feeling this way.It's getting kinda ridiculous
lately, with the animosity flying around in here and its resulting effects. What one thinks when visiting this forum and reads all this ,is not something any of us would want to hear.There was a time when I could explain it away, with a grin and laugh, as good old fashioned "competive spirit".At this particular time,though,I would have to shrug and silently wander away, to embarassed to say a thing.
But I will say this to whomever ,and they can interpret it however they want. This is supposed to be fun, a hobby of sorts.Some hobbies can last a lifetime.
Some ,physically, cannot. The reason most people quit a hobby is because of "disinterest" (which includes boredom,laziness, and is defined as being
indifferent, or withdrawn).I believe that we are here to have fun ,to enjoy ourselves.Racing online ,is for us, keeping with our competive nature and our
way of escape from our problems .Kind of a fantasy we still hold in our minds,from when we were growing up, of becoming a racer.It makes us feel good and
that is good for us.When it doesnt feel good, its not good for us.
I would think that a person would be encouraged to stay ,rather then "oh well"ed...".NEXT" !That to me shows a lack of comraderie,friendship and also,
"disinterest" ,(except this "disinterest" is defined as dispassionate,impersonal, and colorless).
I see this as a sad day in history for the NHRL.
Image
User avatar
Stick77
League Member
Posts: 558
Joined: Wed Jun 28, 2006 10:13 pm
Location: Maniago, Italy

Re: Has to be said

Post by Stick77 »

Well where to start, i think this is starting to turn into an Xbox 360 online gaming site. I myself have to deal with young ignorant people sending me PM's just before qualifying and older guys who intentionally wreck guys due to their mistakes. I need to review some replays but im sure from my experiences with a certain driver, that rookie wouldnt wreck someone intentionally. I would think that from ongoing events it may be a PTC thing. JMO. This guy as already shown that if something doesnt go his way he is going to retaliate. My view, he spun out infront of me during a BGN race and i t-boned him,"not something i wanted to do considering i made to 8th place form 20th clean and wreck my front end" but he has the nerve to come back a lap later, mowe the grass and try and take me out! Those are the guys who need to leave." 50 points isnt justice enuff" Not the competetors who make it a challenge to try and beat every week. I cant remember one time Rookie ever raced someone wrong or wondered why the hell did he do that.YGM seems to come to mind after all of the resent post. And if Rookies penalty was from hitting PTC-Patch on lap 3 watch lap 12 and 13 following PTC and tell me if that even compairs!! Hell no it doesnt PTC should be sitting out some Races. Garbage!!!
\
Image
JRich60
League Member
Posts: 56
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2008 6:29 pm

Re: Has to be said

Post by JRich60 »

Since I have not raced with any of you here on NHRL in the Cup series yet, I can't speak on any of the problems going on. All I can say is I am a member of PTC and I try to race clean and fair. As far as Stick saying "I would think that from ongoing events it may be a PTC thing. JMO", that's not fair to us that try and stay clean. IMO.

The only reason when I registered my screen name here isn't PTC_Rich, there was some discussion from Doug about the league going a different direction. Now that it is back, my name will be PTC_Rich whenever I race.

Thanks for letting me vent...lol

PTC_Rich
JRich
JRich60
User avatar
Stick77
League Member
Posts: 558
Joined: Wed Jun 28, 2006 10:13 pm
Location: Maniago, Italy

Re: Has to be said

Post by Stick77 »

Well let me clarify, PTC-PATCH. I dont know you and i dont care about your league, All i know is PTC-PATCH tried to wreck me out. Do you even race here and why do you care whats going on? Other then that spend your 2 cents elsewhere! So stick to your intramural league.Cause as far as im concerned this isnt any of your buisness.
Image
CR49
League Member
Posts: 278
Joined: Mon May 07, 2007 4:57 pm

Re: Has to be said

Post by CR49 »

That was kind of harsh Stick. I kinda see where the man is coming from he thought you were bashing his team when you said PTC. He was just sticking up for himself thinking you were saying the whole team was dirty or something the way your post was worded. I was wondering myself for a second until I got to thinking you really probably didn't even know about PTC as a group.
User avatar
Stick77
League Member
Posts: 558
Joined: Wed Jun 28, 2006 10:13 pm
Location: Maniago, Italy

Re: Has to be said

Post by Stick77 »

Well i say PTC cause im not awrare this name is a team thing in some other league somewhere else,he or the rest of his team isnt even involved in the BGN league. Just PTC patch, so if he or his team doesnt want to be associated thats not my problem. The guy name PTC-patch however is and has proven that he has issues with retaliation on the track. Im sure other guys who have raced with him present and past in this league and different expierenced the same, "Cause i have talked with a few" So i could care less what ptc jc rich or whoever has to say. If your not in this league then butt out, this isnt where you race!
Image
User avatar
lepage71
League Administrator
Posts: 2355
Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2006 1:00 am
Location: NASCAR Heat Racing League
Contact:

Re: Has to be said

Post by lepage71 »

Let me just mention that JRich has been approved to run in the league. He plans on making his debut in the CUP Series after taking care of a few unrelated items.
User avatar
Stick77
League Member
Posts: 558
Joined: Wed Jun 28, 2006 10:13 pm
Location: Maniago, Italy

Re: Has to be said

Post by Stick77 »

Well wonderful, maybe he and his team member can intentionally crash some folks and get a pat on the butt
Image
User avatar
bover907
League Administrator
Posts: 2669
Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2006 1:16 am
Location: Pennsylvania
Contact:

Re: Has to be said

Post by bover907 »

I, for one can't EVER remember rookie loosing his temper or driving dirty on the race track, and find it highly suprising that he'd do it this time.

I've said it a million times... YOU CAN'T TELL ONE'S INTENTIONS FROM A THIN SERVER PERSPECTIVE.... I should hope rookie has sent in his replay.... I could belive that someone would overdrive their race car to get away from a driver who they continually have had incedents with lately.... It just seems to happen from time to time that two drivers keep getting stuck together and having crap happen....

I remember in '05, It seemed like I couldn't get away from Dusterlag... I bet it seemd that way to him too..... I know I would end up making rash decisions on the track when I was next to him or in front of him, because it seemed like we wrecked eachother every week.

Again..... I find it EXTREMELY HARD TO BELIEVE that the most stand-up driver in this league intentionally wrecked someone.....
Bover907
Old School Racing

Image Image
SpeedyExiter
League Member
Posts: 991
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2007 5:58 am
Location: Phoenix, Arizona
Contact:

Re: Has to be said

Post by SpeedyExiter »

This statement, even though it was in reference to a North Carolina race incident,got me thinking.
lepage71 wrote:The cockpit view alone, however, can be very misleading and it only presents one driver's perspective. If you look at the incident closely, from other angles,he doesn't really come down a ridiculous amount, at least nothing unusual for a driver in that portion of the track. From the chase and overhead views, you actually come up much more than he comes down.
Rookie drives in the X-ray mode. If you watch the replay from that position in his vehicle ,you will see that he sees Patch go wide off into the grass ,and then runs hard off the corner. There is no way u can say from that "perspective" that he intentionally hit Patch.U cant see him until they collide.U can also
clearly see Rookie has his wheel turned to the right just before he straightens it to come out of the turn.I dont see him turning the wheel at anytime towards
Patch or even to the left.If you go back a half a lap or more You see Patch going off in the grass numerous times only to return > At the section where you have to come back up onto the Main Indy track.Rookie shows alot of patience with Patch and Patch shows little regard to ??.in the first turn rook goes inside .overshoots the turn and goes into grass. U can see he waits for patch to go by before reentering the track.Rookie has always shown patience as far as I know . This incident is nothing compared to BMX trying to intentionally run me off the track in the CTS Lowes race .and more than once .Why wasn't he assessed a penalty,Lepage? Is it, that you did not see it. Or you dont care. Any one can see him run me off. I didn't say anything cause I figured you would see it.(BMX, you need not reply , cause you have no defense). The -50pt penalty assessed to Rookie is ridiculous, let alone talk of suspension.If you feel the need to penalize someone for something, penalize yourself for exiting the pits incorrectly and not staying close to the apron line until the next turn on lap 29 in this years NBS Las Vegas race.
Image
bmxtwins
League Member
Posts: 1461
Joined: Tue Jun 17, 2008 10:00 pm

Re: Has to be said

Post by bmxtwins »

SpeedyExiter wrote:This statement, even though it was in reference to a North Carolina race incident,got me thinking.
lepage71 wrote:The cockpit view alone, however, can be very misleading and it only presents one driver's perspective. If you look at the incident closely, from other angles,he doesn't really come down a ridiculous amount, at least nothing unusual for a driver in that portion of the track. From the chase and overhead views, you actually come up much more than he comes down.
Rookie drives in the X-ray mode. If you watch the replay from that position in his vehicle ,you will see that he sees Patch go wide off into the grass ,and then runs hard off the corner. There is no way u can say from that "perspective" that he intentionally hit Patch.U cant see him until they collide.U can also
clearly see Rookie has his wheel turned to the right just before he straightens it to come out of the turn.I dont see him turning the wheel at anytime towards
Patch or even to the left.If you go back a half a lap or more You see Patch going off in the grass numerous times only to return > At the section where you have to come back up onto the Main Indy track.Rookie shows alot of patience with Patch and Patch shows little regard to ??.in the first turn rook goes inside .overshoots the turn and goes into grass. U can see he waits for patch to go by before reentering the track.Rookie has always shown patience as far as I know . This incident is nothing compared to BMX trying to intentionally run me off the track in the CTS Lowes race .and more than once .Why wasn't he assessed a penalty,Lepage? Is it, that you did not see it. Or you dont care. Any one can see him run me off. I didn't say anything cause I figured you would see it.(BMX, you need not reply , cause you have no defense). The -50pt penalty assessed to Rookie is ridiculous, let alone talk of suspension.If you feel the need to penalize someone for something, penalize yourself for exiting the pits incorrectly and not staying close to the apron line until the next turn on lap 29 in this years NBS Las Vegas race.
You think i intentional wrecked you at cts? Dude u rear end me and its called me intentional wrecking? Speedy your way out of line, you cant even drive your car without hitting something and your saying that. As far as im concerned you can talk the talk but you cant walk the walk.

No matter how much i hate someone i would never steep so low to intentional wreck them, the penalties for doing this are to great, -50 pts and a possible suspension, too much to wreck someone.
User avatar
Petty43
League Member
Posts: 755
Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2007 11:51 pm
Location: Eastern Iowa

Re: Has to be said

Post by Petty43 »

DaveO
League Member
Posts: 999
Joined: Tue Jan 02, 2007 6:53 pm
Contact:

Re: Has to be said

Post by DaveO »

I wasen't going to post and get involded in this stuff. But last night I had so many guys Instant messaging me, and emailing me, about all the drama that has been going on here the last several weeks. I guess I need to post. -sigh.

I have only one thing to say, and that's to concur with Bover. I've known Rookierocks for over 5 years, I find it hard to beleive that he would intentionally wreck someone. I have the upmost respect for Rookies track awareness and behavior on the track. In over 5 years, NEVER have I've seen Rookie intentionally hit anyone in this leauge, or in fact in any league that we have raced in, in years past. What the hell happened to this league??
NHRL 2012 Cup & NBS Champion. 2013 CTS Champion & Cup Champion. 31 Wins, 26 Poles, and 2,126 laps led!
SpeedyExiter
League Member
Posts: 991
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2007 5:58 am
Location: Phoenix, Arizona
Contact:

Re: Has to be said

Post by SpeedyExiter »

Bmx, you are an idiot.I told you not to reply, cause you have no defense.And immediately you reply with accusations you can not back up .PERIOD. I can back mine up.Lap10, is the first intentional run off, and the very beginning of lap 18,not to mention all the blocking you attempted,not only against me but others also, and Your lap 33 is also suspect , but I'll be nice and conclude that you lost sight of me while battling GSX ,so we'll leave that one out.You know what you did, and you should have been penalized.At the time,I didnt say a thing to Admins,cause it was plain as day.But when another guy gets penalized for an incident that is far less suspect then your actions were against me, then either the Admins never saw it or they believe yours didnt warrant a penalty.If we were required to send in our replays,BMX ,of these incidents, I am sure yours would or has been conveniently lost ,misplaced,
accidently deleted, or eaten by your dog!!!

The reply I made in this thread earlier,was not about you. It was an analogy of penalty infractions, and "perception"etc.

So with that said..Dont talk to me or wreck me...and we'll be fine .If I wreck myself ,thats my business, and entirely none of yours.You just keep yourself
busy patting yourself on the back but be careful you dont twist your arm off doing it.
Image
User avatar
RoushFenway9916
League Member
Posts: 125
Joined: Fri Nov 28, 2008 1:48 pm
Location: Marion, OH

Re: Has to be said

Post by RoushFenway9916 »

Well, I know I am new around here, but I want to stand up for Rookie as well. I remember one of my first ever races in the league at Darlington in the CTS. I was several laps down and fighting a car which I felt I had little control over. The only place I felt like I wasn't going to spin the car out was right along the bottom of the track... when I went more than 1 lane up I thought I was going to lose it or slide right up into the wall. Rookies was leading the race and coming up on me fast. As I entered turn 1, I had it right on the line. Rookies was right on my tailgate probably wanting me to get out of his way. I held him up all the way through the corner. Coming off of turn 2, I continued to hold him up due to traffic coming out the pits and entering the track. Even going into turn 3 I still held him up until I finally slid up the track into the wall. Rookies never so much as even touched me that whole time and I wouldn't have blamed him even if he would have due to my own stupidity. To think somebody who was this patient with an idiot beginner such as myself tried to intentionally wreck somebody is foolish. Rookies is one of the best and cleanest racers I have had the privilege of racing with.

The same goes for Reef. Reef has spoken to me more so than anybody else. Skoty helped get me started in the league and I appreciate that greatly! However, once I had gotten started and was racing each week, any time I had a question I ended up asking Reef since I would get no response from anybody else (admins). Reef has always raced me clean on the track and from my view is a stand up driver.

It is just a shame that things have turned this way in the league. I'm not here to criticize any particular person, but I am here to stand up for Reef and Rookies as I believe they have gotten a raw deal.
Image Image
User avatar
lepage71
League Administrator
Posts: 2355
Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2006 1:00 am
Location: NASCAR Heat Racing League
Contact:

Re: Has to be said

Post by lepage71 »

There's no doubt that the incident happened. We went above and beyond in properly determining this. We're as surprised as everyone about it.

I sense that a couple of you are suggesting that the penalty should not have been assessed due to who Rookiesrock intentionally crashed. Sorry, but that's not how it works. We try to uphold consistency and you can't put this idea on the table when convenient. I know that you don't want Rookiesrock to leave, but that was his decision and his alone. There's no place for those tactics in the league.

Roush, I don't mean to pick on you in particular, but you're precisely the reason why I respond to unfair assertions such as Reef's. You start out with incomplete information, see some compelling accusations, and then perceive a "raw deal." I can assure you that this couldn't be further from the truth.
User avatar
RoushFenway9916
League Member
Posts: 125
Joined: Fri Nov 28, 2008 1:48 pm
Location: Marion, OH

Re: Has to be said

Post by RoushFenway9916 »

Tell me this then... how can it be incomplete information when it is my opinion? Since when is a person's own opinion incomplete? Right or wrong, it is one person's opinion. I speak from what I see and know and for you say that my opinion (not in those words, but simply by saying what you did responding to and mentioning me directly) is incomplete is retarded itself. I never stated and/or tried to state facts about these incidents that happened. I wasn't even there since my computer crashed. I mearly was stating my opinion based off of what has happened to me personally and my interactions with these two people in the past. Yes people make mistakes... we all do, we are human. However, we as humans are also known for our reputations, and the reputation that Rookies and Reef has implanted is my mind and opinion is nothing but a positive one.

So bring on all the big and fancy words you want and write the biggest response known to man, but I was mearly stating my opinion and a persons own opinion CANNOT be incomplete.
Image Image
Post Reply