Just wanted to put out a thought out there of making NHRL similar to real life racing in the sense of making Busch (or even CTS) a "educational" division of NHRL.
Just like in real life, most Busch racers are either "lifers" (not good enough to race cup) or young talented rookies who need some "seat time" before making the move to cup.
I say this as there seems to be alot of new guys joining who need more seasoning before racing with the big boys. I'm sure everyone knows how to race who is in here, but it seems some of the new drivers care about themselves and not any consequences they cause by having this mindset.
I feel Busch/CTS should be a "training" ground, or a test of sorts, for new drivers who want to race with the big boys. Just like in real life, drivers like Hamlin, Edwards, Stewart, Biffle all raced Busch/CTS first, got there feet wet, then moved to Cup.
Also Busch can be used by drivers in Cup as a training period or just for guys who want to race alot like Edwards, Harvick and others do now (aka Busch-Wackers).
There could be a minimum limit of 20 races needed in Busch/CTS combined before they can sub or race regular in Cup from the time they join.
I am in no way saying that there aren't some Cup vets that don't need some practice and i'm not saying there aren't talented "rookies" that can jump right to Cup.
But it's getting old every week that the subs (which are primarily new guys) or even the new regular drivers are the center of an accident or fail to yield to faster cars, or ram into ya entering the pits, etc etc.
Sorry that's my rant/idea.
Thoughts?
My vision on inexperienced drivers.
My vision on inexperienced drivers.
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Rookiesrock
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I personally like the minimum race # idea myself, even being a sub (new to NHRL, certainly not new to Heat).
I expect and hope this post isn't directed toward me in any way, as my three starts in NHRL competition involved fun, clean racing with other drivers -- while, at the same time, I get taken out by other new drivers to the league, three different inexperienced drivers in three different races, I won't mention any names, but I was never *personally* run over by another sub driver. Regardless, I still think subs need a one-time test session with an administrator to clear them to race...
If my passive driving style annoys anyone in any way I will change it. NHRL is the best racing league I've ever raced in and I'd hate to interfere with the competition and the realistic intensity everyone faces.
Back to the subject, I'm really liking the seat time requirement you suggested. Twenty races ago from today (mostly IORS races) I was nowhere near as "good" as a driver I am today (needless to say, my results don't say I'm a "good" driver, nor do I think I am). I'm sure Kyle will agree with me on that -- in the first Talladega IORS Cup race in 2006 I blocked the leaders on the last lap and contributed to Kyle's second place finish in the standings, which would have been a win without the penalty.
I can see the admins' points when they want to fill the field in all the races, I'd want to do the same thing if it were my league. I guess that's where the whole aspect of "field fillers" come into play (speaking of field fillers, check out my new page -- Field Filler - The Story of Etab at http://fieldfiller.com).
I expect and hope this post isn't directed toward me in any way, as my three starts in NHRL competition involved fun, clean racing with other drivers -- while, at the same time, I get taken out by other new drivers to the league, three different inexperienced drivers in three different races, I won't mention any names, but I was never *personally* run over by another sub driver. Regardless, I still think subs need a one-time test session with an administrator to clear them to race...
If my passive driving style annoys anyone in any way I will change it. NHRL is the best racing league I've ever raced in and I'd hate to interfere with the competition and the realistic intensity everyone faces.
Back to the subject, I'm really liking the seat time requirement you suggested. Twenty races ago from today (mostly IORS races) I was nowhere near as "good" as a driver I am today (needless to say, my results don't say I'm a "good" driver, nor do I think I am). I'm sure Kyle will agree with me on that -- in the first Talladega IORS Cup race in 2006 I blocked the leaders on the last lap and contributed to Kyle's second place finish in the standings, which would have been a win without the penalty.
I can see the admins' points when they want to fill the field in all the races, I'd want to do the same thing if it were my league. I guess that's where the whole aspect of "field fillers" come into play (speaking of field fillers, check out my new page -- Field Filler - The Story of Etab at http://fieldfiller.com).
Steve aka Etab
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j2thec
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I hope you are not refering to me....
I guess some people just can't drop it. I guess you don't understand that when there is a train of cars behind you, you shouldn't get out of line. And you shouldn't try to make holes in that line. I lifted but if I lifted anymore I would have gotten punted from behind.
But I guess you just need something to complain about.
I guess some people just can't drop it. I guess you don't understand that when there is a train of cars behind you, you shouldn't get out of line. And you shouldn't try to make holes in that line. I lifted but if I lifted anymore I would have gotten punted from behind.
But I guess you just need something to complain about.
Actually this is something i've mentioned to lepage in the past and yes our incident was in mind, but also was an incident in CTS race when someone blew up the track in turn 1 coming out of the pits and wrecked EFGordan. And that's just this weekend. There's been alot of incidents caused by subs or new drivers.
Plus as Lepage stated in the pre-race chat, there were alot of complaints on subs and such. I don't know specifics, only what LP said in the chat room.
You apologized and even admitted some fault, which I accepted your apology and that was it.
And if you watch the replay I was in-line behind D3efan and he drifted alittle high and I was staying right behind him, then the 77 snuck in first but I stayed high, but there was a gap between you and him and I dropped back in line, i had actually gotten back in line and you came from below the yellow line and hit me.
If you'd or anyone else would like, here is the replay http://nhrl.camryvw.com/
Plus as Lepage stated in the pre-race chat, there were alot of complaints on subs and such. I don't know specifics, only what LP said in the chat room.
You apologized and even admitted some fault, which I accepted your apology and that was it.
And if you watch the replay I was in-line behind D3efan and he drifted alittle high and I was staying right behind him, then the 77 snuck in first but I stayed high, but there was a gap between you and him and I dropped back in line, i had actually gotten back in line and you came from below the yellow line and hit me.
If you'd or anyone else would like, here is the replay http://nhrl.camryvw.com/
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j2thec
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yes but i had the 77 in tow, and if you listen to my motor you can tell i was completely off the gas, and luckily 2quick didn't rear-end me.
I'm not trying to start anything with you or anyone for that matter. I sub alot and I know for the most part I stay out of the way. I really can't think of anytime that I had an incident on the track as a sub, unless I was disconnected or something of that nature.
I'm not trying to start anything with you or anyone for that matter. I sub alot and I know for the most part I stay out of the way. I really can't think of anytime that I had an incident on the track as a sub, unless I was disconnected or something of that nature.
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Rookiesrock
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Dear Camry,
NHRL has never and will never have or use different mods as educational steps towards a cup series invitation. The 3 series are different games so enough said about that. I feel your pain camry but accidents happen and its usually a fight over realestate. How would you decide who gets to race in a series or not? Seniority, road test or what? The incidents you had with J2theC or in cts with Sly1 would still have happened. Both these guys are veterans to plate track racing and would have been in any race that you also were allowed in. I have had the same complaints about you in years past. Does that mean you should'nt be in a cup race? Everyone has a choice out there to battle every lap for every position or let the other guy have the position and get it back later. NHRL is trying to get large fields and I say its working. Where would you draw the line? How much fun is it to run with 6 cars at a plate track? The more the better. Next year the rules for plate tracks change and with it will be new challenges. No hugging the bottom line in the back stretch will be the new rule next year. So if you want to pass the leader you can. But if you want to stay in line and draft you can also. Somewhere down the line someone is gonna want to get out of line and pass inside. Thats when the passer and the passie have to quickly decide whats gonna happen. The NHRL is attempting to teach drivers quickly by handing out penalties and defining rules more clearly. At least a few drivers failed to read the rules this weekend or ever for that matter. Let them be dealt with and let's move on.
P.S. BTW subs DO have to be approved by the league before they can race.
NHRL has never and will never have or use different mods as educational steps towards a cup series invitation. The 3 series are different games so enough said about that. I feel your pain camry but accidents happen and its usually a fight over realestate. How would you decide who gets to race in a series or not? Seniority, road test or what? The incidents you had with J2theC or in cts with Sly1 would still have happened. Both these guys are veterans to plate track racing and would have been in any race that you also were allowed in. I have had the same complaints about you in years past. Does that mean you should'nt be in a cup race? Everyone has a choice out there to battle every lap for every position or let the other guy have the position and get it back later. NHRL is trying to get large fields and I say its working. Where would you draw the line? How much fun is it to run with 6 cars at a plate track? The more the better. Next year the rules for plate tracks change and with it will be new challenges. No hugging the bottom line in the back stretch will be the new rule next year. So if you want to pass the leader you can. But if you want to stay in line and draft you can also. Somewhere down the line someone is gonna want to get out of line and pass inside. Thats when the passer and the passie have to quickly decide whats gonna happen. The NHRL is attempting to teach drivers quickly by handing out penalties and defining rules more clearly. At least a few drivers failed to read the rules this weekend or ever for that matter. Let them be dealt with and let's move on.
P.S. BTW subs DO have to be approved by the league before they can race.
No offense Rookie, but that was the a highly inappropriate response and format as possible.
"Dear Camry", lmao. This was a simple Suggestion as the forum topic where I placed it states ("Polls and Suggestions"). Yet you respond to it like I sent a letter to Dear Abby or a "letter to the editor".
People can't make suggestions without others getting all bent out of shape? Nobody was calling names or anything like that, it was a simple suggestion.
Now, to you answer your questions and statements:
I'm shocked this turned into a defensive topic when NOBODY was called out.
Look forward to the responses from this post now as well.
Will
"Dear Camry", lmao. This was a simple Suggestion as the forum topic where I placed it states ("Polls and Suggestions"). Yet you respond to it like I sent a letter to Dear Abby or a "letter to the editor".
People can't make suggestions without others getting all bent out of shape? Nobody was calling names or anything like that, it was a simple suggestion.
Now, to you answer your questions and statements:
I already gave an example of that, 20 races needed for experience between CTS/Busch. There are a ton of other ways as well.How would you decide who gets to race in a series or not? Seniority, road test or what?
Everyone has accidents, it happens, your absolutely right. But the bigger you make the fields and the more new drivers your adding, the higher the risk. That's a fact.The incidents you had with J2theC or in cts with Sly1 would still have happened
This is not "plate track" only i'm referencing. It just happened to be that this post came after that type of track. Also, I can give you 20 guys from local tracks around me that are veterens at what they do, doesn't mean they can step into Cup (or even Busch) for that matter and be ready.Both these guys are veterans to plate track racing and would have been in any race that you also were allowed in.
No doubting that, as I said before, people cause accidents. But I have learned to not stick my nose where it will cause a problem. I've learned that passing a car on lap 10 doesn't get you a win on lap 100. Guess how I learned that...experience!!I have had the same complaints about you in years past.
With the number of drivers we had, we would not even be close to 6 on a track. This isn't 3/4 years ago, when we barely made 8.Where would you draw the line? How much fun is it to run with 6 cars at a plate track? The more the better.
Correct me if i'm wrong, but I'm thinking that 99% of the subs are drivers already in NHRL, when was the last time one of those drivers got disallowed? Once they are in the league, aren't they essentially "approved"? Can't imaging you guys saying, "Welcome, to the league, you can race full-time in Busch and CTS, but you can't sub in Cup because you aren't an approved racer"?P.S. BTW subs DO have to be approved by the league before they can race.
I'm shocked this turned into a defensive topic when NOBODY was called out.
Look forward to the responses from this post now as well.
Will
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Rookiesrock
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I understood your post to be about subs and I am debating on behalf of the subs. I am also trying to explain why it is impossible to avoid these incidents.
Who decides what seasoning will do the trick?
Sincerely,
Rookiesrock
I say this as there seems to be alot of new guys joining who need more seasoning before racing with the big boys. I'm sure everyone knows how to race who is in here, but it seems some of the new drivers care about themselves and not any consequences they cause by having this mindset.
Who decides what seasoning will do the trick?
If that's the case then all but 1 guy has ran their minimum 20 races. Now what? And if they move to cup and have an incident then they get moved back to triple A?There could be a minimum limit of 20 races needed in Busch/CTS combined before they can sub or race regular in Cup from the time they join.
I was simply stating the facts. Often, sometimes weekly there are drivers after or during a race expressing displeasure with another drivers driving. While at the same time demonstrating similar behavior recently themselves. You have been in this league 4 or 5 years maybe more. Havent you had any discussions on this topic. Just wondering.No offense Rookie, but that was the a highly inappropriate response and format as possible.
Sincerely,
Rookiesrock
Well, in my honest opinion I think it should be a full season of busch or cts first before being allowed to run cup. But 20 or something similar could be a good middle ground for those who don't want to wait an entire calendar year to race Cup.
Hey, the more drivers the better, I have 0 issue with that. It's guys coming in not caring about anyone but themselves and being wreckless that make it not fun. Until about half way last season, we had some great races, restrictor and non-restrictor plate tracks, now it seems the racing quality is deteriorating as we add more drivers.
And no, there is no demotion. Trust me, and I think someone said it earlier in this topic, you will get alot more accustomed to the league, tracks, setups and other drivers with the more races you run. So I don't think that they need to be dropped, because they should have a good understanding.
Also, if the Admins feel that after 20 races, driver X is still causing issues, you have the right to keep them down until they straighten out.
I'm just curious why you wouldn't explore this as option if only to find better ways to improve the experience of being in this league. Rather then just disregarding it right away saying it's not an option.
I have yet to hear why it can't be done other then we just don't want to do it.
Thanks,
Will
Hey, the more drivers the better, I have 0 issue with that. It's guys coming in not caring about anyone but themselves and being wreckless that make it not fun. Until about half way last season, we had some great races, restrictor and non-restrictor plate tracks, now it seems the racing quality is deteriorating as we add more drivers.
And no, there is no demotion. Trust me, and I think someone said it earlier in this topic, you will get alot more accustomed to the league, tracks, setups and other drivers with the more races you run. So I don't think that they need to be dropped, because they should have a good understanding.
Also, if the Admins feel that after 20 races, driver X is still causing issues, you have the right to keep them down until they straighten out.
I'm just curious why you wouldn't explore this as option if only to find better ways to improve the experience of being in this league. Rather then just disregarding it right away saying it's not an option.
I have yet to hear why it can't be done other then we just don't want to do it.
Thanks,
Will
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Rookiesrock
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It's being implied that there is a hierarchy amongst the 3 series. Cup being the best. That's simply not so. Or implying that cts and nbs are easier to drive thus a stepping stone to cup. That's where I believe it won't work. But saying that I am in full support of another series of the exact same mod one wants to race in. In real nascar they have a rookie happy hour only. Maybe a rookie, and I use the term loosely, series another day of the week. Maybe you Camry can host and give pointers with a few veterans showing up periodically giving pointers to the inexperienced fellows.
The old efgordon could really have some fun in this debate.
but i have had a recent life changing experience that makes me no longer a trouble maker, so i will just have to stay positive
i'm not sure if any of the opinions here are better than just the plain facts. The server was so full during one of the races (my stoned ass cant remember which), that we had to do a pace lap. Thats gonna get old quick
so we are limited by technology anyway!
also, as the league expands there will have to be some sort of method to limit the feild whether we think we need it or not. Well, i am assuming they would not want to do pace laps every week and smash up derby on short tracks.
and when that happens, there will certainly become a heirarcy within the series. try to write it out of the rule book all yaz want, but you cant rule out the competitive nature in man.
i'm thinking the league really only needs about 3 of the known half a dozen tards to become competitive and there wont even be room for truely not ready for primetime racers.
i'm thinking this problem fixes itself and eventually sunday nights will have the best racing ever. put the friggin cars back on sundays and maybe LOD can get eagle back! oh shoot, i am starting to make trouble again, i better stop now
now back to your regularly scheduled program
albert efstein
proff of common sense
efgordonville university
go ef u
but i have had a recent life changing experience that makes me no longer a trouble maker, so i will just have to stay positive
i'm not sure if any of the opinions here are better than just the plain facts. The server was so full during one of the races (my stoned ass cant remember which), that we had to do a pace lap. Thats gonna get old quick
so we are limited by technology anyway!
also, as the league expands there will have to be some sort of method to limit the feild whether we think we need it or not. Well, i am assuming they would not want to do pace laps every week and smash up derby on short tracks.
and when that happens, there will certainly become a heirarcy within the series. try to write it out of the rule book all yaz want, but you cant rule out the competitive nature in man.
i'm thinking the league really only needs about 3 of the known half a dozen tards to become competitive and there wont even be room for truely not ready for primetime racers.
i'm thinking this problem fixes itself and eventually sunday nights will have the best racing ever. put the friggin cars back on sundays and maybe LOD can get eagle back! oh shoot, i am starting to make trouble again, i better stop now
now back to your regularly scheduled program
albert efstein
proff of common sense
efgordonville university
go ef u
: Hey the new EF is okay with me anytime!!
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MinnerWinner
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Yeah
What bover's saying is totally right. Rookies like me cant just jump out there with no experience. From reading that, im gonna try for busch series first before i move to cup. Its good thinking. And what efgordon said.
1. Isnt that violating the rules
2.That was the dumbest thing ive ever heard anyone said
1. Isnt that violating the rules
2.That was the dumbest thing ive ever heard anyone said
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lepage71
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There is no heirarchy of series in the NHRL. The developmental concept is an interesting idea, but I don't think this is suited for the league. The three divisions are just separate modes of racing in our league. A new driver may apply to any of the league series and begin playing after the admin approval process is complete.
Before the season started, the admins envisioned 20 competitors as the ideal field size. It is always interesting when we hear complaints about field sizes. Inexplicably, even veteran league members sometimes choose not to inform us of absences on certain weeks (time required: 20 seconds). And then after some low field weeks (again, with many randomly missing drivers), we might choose to boost the series and allow a few 'in-waiting' drivers to join. At New Hampshire we had a skeleton crew, and we approved a few new drivers to join the league entering the playoffs. Then suddenly there were complaints about the number of drivers at Daytona.
:
Daytona was a decent event, aside from the grid issues that are common to that facility.
I agree that there should be standards for accepting new drivers. But the admins already have certain standards. The problem at Daytona and elsewhere was a lack of rules reading and comprehension.
Case closed.
Before the season started, the admins envisioned 20 competitors as the ideal field size. It is always interesting when we hear complaints about field sizes. Inexplicably, even veteran league members sometimes choose not to inform us of absences on certain weeks (time required: 20 seconds). And then after some low field weeks (again, with many randomly missing drivers), we might choose to boost the series and allow a few 'in-waiting' drivers to join. At New Hampshire we had a skeleton crew, and we approved a few new drivers to join the league entering the playoffs. Then suddenly there were complaints about the number of drivers at Daytona.
:Daytona was a decent event, aside from the grid issues that are common to that facility.
I agree that there should be standards for accepting new drivers. But the admins already have certain standards. The problem at Daytona and elsewhere was a lack of rules reading and comprehension.
Case closed.